Comments on: SOLVED: The Outlining vs. Organic Writing Debate

By: Tips on Plot, Plot Layers, Subplot

Tips on Plot, Plot Layers, Subplot — Tue, 26 Jan 2010 21:49:07 +0000

[...] or write. Plan first or write and see where it goes? Oh, the perennial question! I’ll dodge it, though, by saying you must follow your own bent. Find your own working methods [...]

By: Claire

Claire — Mon, 07 Sep 2009 13:46:22 +0000

Really interesting concepts. I’ve always been a “pants-er”, but until last November, I had never finished a novel. In November I did nanowrimo ( a writing competition). For the first time, I didn’t start writing the minute I had an idea. The plot was festering in my mind for weeks and the characters were chomping at the bit to make it to the paper. Even though I didn’t write a formal outline (and couldn’t- I think it would have bored the wits out of me) I had an outline in my mind. I knew exactly where the story would start and where it would end. I knew each character as well as if we’d been on the same team in high school. And I knew the setting as if I’d grown up there myself.
What works for each individual is, well, individual. But, I definitely believe that you have to know your story to write it. Thanks for the insights.

By: Omar

Omar — Mon, 07 Sep 2009 11:35:05 +0000

I dabble in outlining and organic writing. I think its great to be skilled at both.

By: Missy

Missy — Mon, 07 Sep 2009 06:10:32 +0000

Wow.

First off, I loved this post. It gave me a few ideas and gave me a new perspective on some other stuff. So thanks for that.

But really, I got more out of these comments than I did from the actual post. All of you guys have flooded me with new ideas and concepts, and I’m eager to learn more about them. Also, thanks for all the links posted–I’ll be checking them out soon.

Thanks for writing this, Larry. Thanks for arguing, Fekket.

By: Matt

Matt — Sat, 05 Sep 2009 07:40:10 +0000

@FekketCantenel

No comments, but the entry is at http://www.inflatableink.com/2009/08/on-not-knowing-why.html

By: FekketCantenel

FekketCantenel — Sat, 05 Sep 2009 00:23:23 +0000

@Matt:

“. . . over-reliance on motivation can be reductive, and that we also need to leave room for chaos, or for motivations that remain obscure.”

I think you’ll get a kick out of my upcoming article. Heck, I think you just inspired a section of it.

Could you link to the place where you argued about over-reliance on motivation? I’d like to see that comment thread (if there was one).

By: Matt

Matt — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 20:04:29 +0000

@FekketCantenel

You’re right of course. I over-stated my case. Motivation is not fundamental. In fact I’ve argued in the past (after an essay by Aimee Bender) that over-reliance on motivation can be reductive, and that we also need to leave room for chaos, or for motivations that remain obscure. I’d like downgrade ‘fundamental principle’ to ‘very useful technique’. I think I can probably stand by that :)

By: Larry

Larry — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 15:53:28 +0000

@ Matt — you wrote: “I’m not sure that this language boils down to strict principles of story, however. The hero’s journey, and various related structures seem to me to be useful templates rather than hard and fast rules.”

I couldn’t agree more. If my article implied that the rules of structure are strict, my bad, because for novelists they’re not. Screenwriters, yes, but noveists have a wide berth. Rather than “rules” — a word that seems to offend, and NOT one I used in my post, by the way — what every story needs is some dotted line connection to the “principles” of storytelling,
which is precisely what you reinforce in your comment. You refer to them as templates, which is actually more rigid than principles, but helps make our point. So thanks for that.

By: FekketCantenel

FekketCantenel — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 13:31:03 +0000

@Andrew Jack: ‘Professional and courteous’, you say. Here’s why I rolled my eyes: I work for a lawyer. I know what ‘professional and courteous’ is because I and my boss have to be so every weekday. I’m told we’re excellent at it. If the guest poster worked at our office and acted anything like he has here, he’d have been fired inside a week. That’s my measure of ‘professional and courteous’.

@Matt: “On the other hand, some elements of writing are fundamental. A character should have a motivation that drives her through her scenes.”

I actually disagree with even this ‘fundamental’ element. The first counter-example to come to mind is Arthur Dent of the Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy series. I only ever read up to the third book, but as I recall, he wanders through the scenes with no motivation, not even that of survival except when things get very dangerous. It’s the forces and people around him who push him forward. Yet these books are lauded as some of the best science fiction ever written (not that I agree, but they’re pretty good). So this can be a pretty fun rule to mess around with. Maybe I’ll include it in my upcoming article (which is in the outline stage at the moment and has the first section drafted).

Thanks to two people for capturing my thoughts pretty well:

@Our Leader (Leo Babauta): “No one person can decide a debate is over” Thank you. So glad to hear I’m not the only one who thinks so.

@Mickey B: Just . . . Wow. Your entire comment made me say “Bam!” out loud. You captured exactly what I’ve been thinking. I want to buy you a beer, it made me so happy. Keep on typing, you magnificent space cowboy.

By: Matt

Matt — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:12:21 +0000

I tend to agree that the outline/organic division misses the point. Outliners and organic writers look for story, develop characters, settings and motivation. Outliners tend to do more work upfront. Organic writers might spend more time revising. We’re talking the same language, though.

I’m not sure that this language boils down to strict principles of story, however. The hero’s journey, and various related structures seem to me to be useful templates rather than hard and fast rules.

On the other hand, some elements of writing are fundamental. A character should have a motivation that drives her through her scenes. Antagonists should have their own objectives. Out of this clash a story can be forged.

These needs are not always what the writer or the character thinks they are. The processes of both outlining and revision should reveal them to the author, though the characters (and, for a time, the readers) may remain deluded.

Personally I outline, and then I use that structure as an excuse to go as crazy as I need. I like having rules to break.